Why use C++ on Iseries?

[rpgKnight]

Here is what might be a silly question? Why code in C++ on the Iseries? What advantages does it have over RPGLE? Is the future on the Iseries something like C++?

[tomholden]

Re: Why use C++ on Iseries?

no it's not the future of the platform. RPG is tons better for programming business logic than any C variant. C++ has been available for the system since what like 1990? there's not any companies that i am aware of that does any C++ coding natively on the system, the only code i've seen as far as C goes isn't C++ but just plain old C. not saying that C++ is bad but it will never be a major player or game changer as far as the platform goes.

[MichaelCatalani]

Re: Why use C++ on Iseries?

Like Tom stated, C has no advantages over RPG as far as business logic. In fact, it has some handicaps in that regards. It's probably most used on this platform for developing gui front ends and for porting existing applications from another platform.


The older I get, the more I hate staring at cryptic code like C. It's just hard on the eyes as compared to how we can write in free format RPG.


For example, file IO.

RPG

setll MyKeyValue  ThisFile;
reade MyKeyValue ThisFile;
return;

The same thing in C

[LEFT]_Rlocate(FilePointer, &key, key_len, __KEY_LT);[/LEFT]
            
 IoFileBuffer[LEFT]= _Rreadk(FilePointer, record,MAX_LEN, __KEY_NEXTUNQ, &key, key_len);[/LEFT]

return;

On the other hand, Cobol is a bit too verbose for me. I havent coded in it in forever, but if I had to write an example of what it seems like, it would be something like this:

Using-the-key-values-found-in-MyKey Position File ( ThisFile ) To The-Very-First-Record-Matching-The-Key-Value
Using-the-key-values-found-in-MyKey Read File ( ThisFile ) While Ensuring The Record Matches The Key Value
Process-Stop
End-The-Job-Normally
Shut-The-Damned-Thing-Down
A-Buh-Bye

[JayNak]

Re: Why use C++ on Iseries?

I have to disagree with the statement that C variants have no advantage over RPG. Having and using a C variant on the iSeries opens your company up to a wider range of candidates that can contribute to the success of your business. I taught myself C 20+ years ago and I have used it on Window, VAX, Tandem and Unix platforms. I have also used it on the iSeries. I don't know RPG, but everything I have read on the iSeries shows that it is very RPG-centric. 20 years ago I wanted to learn a language that I could use on many different platforms so that I would be able to work in a wide variety of I.T. shops. C was created to be a portable language, just like Java, PHP, C++ and other languages. I have yet to see RPG used in a Windows environment.

Jay

[JayNak]

Re: Why use C++ on Iseries?

To head off any religious rebuttles , I wasn't trying to imply that RPG was bad. I am sure it is a great language that grew-up with the OS and thus likely plays nicer with the OS. The point I wanted to make is that using a portable language like C++ opens up a company to a wider range of I.T. talent that can contribuite to the company in a variety of ways.

J

[MichaelCatalani]

Re: Why use C++ on Iseries?

I have to disagree with the statement that C variants have no advantage over RPG. Having and using a C variant on the iSeries opens your company up to a wider range of candidates that can contribute to the success of your business.

Although that statement is true, it doesnt change the fact that RPG is MUCH better for business logic than C. If you believe that C is anywhere close to being as good as RPG for business logic (or if you are way out of it and believe C is better for business logic), you likely do not understand RPG.

It's kind of like saying that an oar is better than an outboard engine for powering a boat because you can use an oar in any boat, and there's no shortage of people who know how to use an oar.

[JayNak]

Re: Why use C++ on Iseries?

Again, I was not saying C is better than RPG. As far as saying RPG is better at business logic, I'd say its may do the business logic required with fewer lines of code, but I am sure C or Java or ... could be written to emulate any business logic pulled together by an RPG program. My point is; C is a portable language, RPG is not, therefore there is a larger pool of talent out there in the world to draw from.

J

[bryce4president]

Re: Why use C++ on Iseries?

There might be some really CS geeky reason to use C++ over RPG on this platform, but its way out there. RPG and C++ (from what I know, which might be wrong) both compile down to the same MI instructions so you don't get a performance gain even. So having "greater talent" available is a trojan horse. I graduated college with NO RPG experience. I knew C++ and python. Well, I haven't touched either of them in almost 5 years now. I can still read them and could pick them back up if needed, but for what I do every day RPG is hands down the best choice. If those C/C++ devs you dream about are worth their weight they'll be able to pick up RPG and run with it in no time at all. Then you'll have more maintainable code that is understood by a much larger audience

[MichaelCatalani]

Re: Why use C++ on Iseries?

lol, I just noticed the term "outboard engine" got an ebay hit. nice.

[zs6jce]

Re: Why use C++ on Iseries?

Hello,

I am still the new guy, and have no solid opinion as to which is the best programming language.

I am currently employed in a RPGLE shop, with some very smart people doing amazing things. These Titans of industry with +20 years of experience are telling me that RPGLE on the i is King and will wipe the floor with any other System.

My superiors are truly honorable people, which I trust to lead lead me. So I find it really strange that RPGLE's market share do not reflect its superiority. http://www.mcpressonline.com/program...re-of-rpg.html

All I get is Linux, linux, linux and more linux tutorials. So when I came a cross rpgKnight's question it peeked my interest, and I was hoping for a solid objective answer to solidify my opinion that RGPLE is indeed the best.

Instead, rpgKnight (and myself) was given a baseless qualified claim that RPG(LE) is better for "business logic". Followed by an useless comparison between oars and outboard motors.

Q: So, please for the love of goodness, can you please give us proper substantiated answers?

Warm Regards,
Christoff

[gcraill]

Re: Why use C++ on Iseries?

Q: So, please for the love of goodness, can you please give us proper substantiated answers?

We had a system running on the iSeries server here in 99% RPGLE and CLLE stuff. They replaced it with a solution running java/C++ type stuff on a UNIX box, whoop sorry, on 38 Unix boxes. yes folks they replaced 1 iSeries server with 38 Unix servers to do the same job.

Apparently it is best of breed ... As I figure it for TCO (Total Cost of Ownership) paying 1 maintenance and support fee per annum vs paying for 38 is a bad business decision, and that's without factoring in operations/tech/admin staff for 38 servers as opposed to one.

I'd say that substantiates it pretty swell!

[zs6jce]

Re: Why use C++ on Iseries?

...had a system running on the iSeries... They replaced it with ... 38 Unix boxes....

...I'd say that substantiates it pretty swell!

Your company actually decided to go from the "Best" to 38 Unix boxes. I do not consider this an example "that substantiates it pretty swell", as it proves that the market share do not reflect the true greatness of RPGLE on a IBMi.

I am thinking that my original thought regarding "market share" as a measure of greatness is not valid, as there will always be a distortion, as there is not a one to one (38) relationship between an iSeries and one of its competitors boxes.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On a different note.

The TCO is a often stated "fact" as to why the iSeries is better than Unix (or any other System).

I was recently given a link to a new IBM tool to estimate TCO for the iSeries as compared to other Systems, I have not yet use this tool so I can only link it here for reference purposes.http://www.systeminetwork.com/blog/m...ectures-698538

What is very interesting to me is that an i is significantly cheaper "overall", based on the figures in the linked article.

Total IT, Operating, and Strategic costs without IBM Power Systems come in at $11,215,901 over a three year period. With IBM, the costs plummet to just $3,196,825.

Before I move to another system, I would seriously consider double checking my calcs and expectation of ROI.

Regards,
Christoff

[JayNak]

Re: Why use C++ on Iseries?

I do find this thread funny. There is a very definite bias. If all any business were to go on is TCO, and the i wins hands down, why don't we all have little 170s or whatever is the tiny i as our desktops? TCO is just one factor in a business decision.

J

[MichaelCatalani]

Re: Why use C++ on Iseries?

I am still the new guy, and have no solid opinion as to which is the best programming language.

We were not talking about which language is the best programming language. We were stating which one is better for business logic. In order not to get bogged down in an arguement with a random programming nerd, you need to be specific about the task to be accomplished. This platform deals with business logic. RPGIV / LE will wipe the floor with practically any other language out there when it comes to handling business logic. That's just a plain fact. Those who believe Java or C are the end-all-be-all language would probably disagree, but they would be wrong. They simply dont know any better, usually because Java or C is all they know. (And they certainly dont know or understand RPGLE)

When it comes to RPG, you have to keep in mind that this is a language that has been in existence longer than I have. It has been heavily modified and modernized over time. If someone is not familiar with RPGIV and the ILE environment, then they can not compare RPG against any other language.

I am currently employed in a RPGLE shop, with some very smart people doing amazing things. These Titans of industry with +20 years of experience are telling me that RPGLE on the i is King and will wipe the floor with any other System.

They sound like smart people. They have also been dealing with business logic for 20+ years. If someone thinks that another language is better, check out how many years of business logic experience they have. Also, what they are telling you is that RPG ON THIS PLATFORM will wipe the floor with any other system. That part is also true. This platform is far more stable and reliable than nearly anything else out there.

My superiors are truly honorable people, which I trust to lead lead me. So I find it really strange that RPGLE's market share do not reflect its superiority. http://www.mcpressonline.com/program...re-of-rpg.html

You are comparing a system specific language in RPG, used primarily for business logic, and comparing it to open system languages which are usually used for non-business logic purposes. Check out where RPG as a hardware specific language compares against the other BUSINESS LOGIC languages out there, even those that are non-hardware specific.

Instead, rpgKnight (and myself) was given a baseless qualified claim that RPG(LE) is better for "business logic". Followed by an useless comparison between oars and outboard motors.

If you believe the claim was useless, then you arent understanding the foundation of the question nor the response. We were comparing why RPG was better than C for business logic. But instead of comparing why C was better for busines logic, it was stated that it was better because it was cross platform. Just because C is a cross platform language, thereby more people knowing how to program in it, does not mean it is a better business logic language. (Which is where I threw in my oars and outboard motor analogy, which was quite applicable.) You can make a business case that you would want to be using a language that had a larger pool of programmers to draw from, but that doesnt mean that its a better business logic language. If we were to do that, we might as well state that Windows is the best operating system, because more people use it.

Q: So, please for the love of goodness, can you please give us proper substantiated answers?

RPG handles file IO and decimal mathematics natively, both which are utilized extensively in business logic. This makes those programming tasks very simple. And because file IO is handled natively, RPG will wipe the floor with any other language when it comes to random file access speed. Reading, writing, and updating data base files is extraordinarily easy to do.

Most business logic programs are executed simultaneously many different users. RPG on this platform can keep the memory requirement of pulling this off to a minimum, and does this automatically. When an RPG program is compiled, the compiler separates the program object from static storage. It doesnt matter if one job or 10,000 jobs are executing the same program, the program object will only be in memory once. This greatly reduces the memory footprint and hardware requirements of the system. In other languages on other platforms, you would have to write the program to be multi-threaded to pull off a similar feat. (Much more complex programming) And if you couldnt do this (usually due to security), then the system would normally need to hold the program code for each request in memory, greatly increasing memory utilization for business logic programs.

[dhanuxp]

Re: Why use C++ on Iseries?

I am currently employed in a RPGLE shop, with some very smart people doing amazing things. These Titans of industry with +20 years of experience are telling me that RPGLE on the i is King and will wipe the floor with any other System.

My superiors are truly honorable people, which I trust to lead lead me.

It is blessed to working a place like yours... I worked with a place like that & was a rewarding Job. The team was really happy & they bring so many new things on IBMi to support the day to day business even our competitors could not be able to guess. Planned many things for next 10+ years on IBMi. We didn't mind that what it is the language is but wanted to run the core applications is on IBMi + Web. To support the business, we use RPGLE,Java,PHP,C++ and so on. Time pass.... Company need a change new peoples came and started to talking about obsolete IBMi servers, legacy application & so on. Then the story began…......!!!!